Handicap for young (defender) players?

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Handicap for young (defender) players?

Post by Boulder »

I've read somewhere that in CM01/02, there is some kind of a handicap for players, at least defenders, under 24. Is this true, and if so, is there a patch to remove it? I find it a bit odd considering that a player is old enough when he is good enough :lol:
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Handicap for young (defender) players?

Post by MadScientist »

Boulder wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:42 pm I've read somewhere that in CM01/02, there is some kind of a handicap for players, at least defenders, under 24.
Is this true
yes, its true. It was me who said that in two different threads.

All players (not only defenders) get a penalty to their positioning attribute in the match engine when they are less than 24 years old. The younger, the bigger the penalty.

in_match_positioning = Intrinsic/5 + CA/20 + other_factors

The handicap is part of the other_factors variable.

They also get a penalty in some mental/physical atts when below 24 yo.

As positioning and mental/physical atts tend to be more important for defenders than attackers, defenders tend to be more impacted in their performances by this handicap than attackers.
Boulder wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:42 pm is there a patch to remove it? I find it a bit odd considering that a player is old enough when he is good enough :lol:
There isnt a patch for it, would be easy to make one though, just change the age values hardcodes to lower values in that function.
Boulder wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:42 pm I find it a bit odd considering that a player is old enough when he is good enough :lol:
In my opinion the handicap is fine, because positioning is very attached to player experience in real life.

The only problem is that the handicap isnt reflected in the visible player attribute value in the profile screen because that screen replaces the other_factors variable with simply another CA/20 factor, so the game isnt transparent about this handicap.

You would be surprised by the ammount of different handicaps to all attributes that currently exist in the match engine other_factors variable for several different conditions, that arent reflected in the visible player attribute value in profile screen.
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Handicap for young (defender) players?

Post by samsami »

I fully agree that the handicap is fine. It makes the game more realistic. I like it!

Defenders get better when they're older.
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Handicap for young (defender) players?

Post by Boulder »

Thank you for a thorough explanation. Makes it much more understandable why it is there.
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Handicap for young (defender) players?

Post by samsami »

I am curious about the other handicaps now :)

I found out how this one worked when managing Gillingham. Young Gary Breen (DC) had all the right attributes but he was underwhelming so I sold him.

After finding out about this handicap through MadScientist I bought Breen again a few years later and discovered that he performed a lot better at age 23 then he had during his first stint when he was 20.
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Handicap for young (defender) players?

Post by Tomck »

So it wouldn't be very beneficial to field a starting X1 that were highly rated under 21 internationals?
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Handicap for young (defender) players?

Post by samsami »

Tomck wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:42 am So it wouldn't be very beneficial to field a starting X1 that were highly rated under 21 internationals?
Wingers, midfielders and strikers seem to have much less of a handicap. Positioning is less crucial for them. Central defenders need to be (close to) 24 years of age, by my experience.
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Handicap for young (defender) players?

Post by Tomck »

Interesting.
In all my years of playing these games I never realised that was a thing :lol:
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Handicap for young (defender) players?

Post by samsami »

Tomck wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:00 am Interesting.
In all my years of playing these games I never realised that was a thing :lol:
It's probably because most players develop slowly up to a certain age.

Central defenders just develop a lot faster - or their positioning does. But as MadScientist said: You would be surprised by the number of handicaps to all attributes that exist in the match engine but aren't reflected in the player attributes in the profile screen.
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Handicap for young (defender) players?

Post by Boulder »

Tomck wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:00 am Interesting.
In all my years of playing these games I never realised that was a thing :lol:
I had been wondering about these things because I would get promising youngsters in my lower league team but my defence would always leak a lot. I could often compensate it by also scoring a lot of goals but still thought that everything's not right :lol:
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Handicap for young (defender) players?

Post by MadScientist »

samsami wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:36 am I am curious about the other handicaps now :)
The other_factors is a combination of handicaps and bonuses that comes from lots of different variables and lots of diferent conditions. Each attribute has a different logic for this. Its hard to understand each one (and I also dont want to spoil it too much for myself :) ), but here is a example of some handicaps and bonuses im aware:

- age. Too young or too old both give handicaps, each attribute has different logic for this. Some specific ages gives a boost, for ex: if player is 30-32 yo he gets a boost to positioning during the match.

- player morale.

- positional penalty (placing players in wrong positions)

- The circle the player is placed in the tactical map. Even if he is in his prefered position, some circles get a penalty to some attributes, like crossing for example seem to be penalized if the player is in a center circle.

- being in away match. (The penalty seem to be bigger depending on some factors, maybe the distance to the home city (longitude/latitude)? Maybe the crowd number? maybe something else?)

- poor mental attributes impact some attributes

- tactical instructions? Now im not sure about this one, but it looks like its giving a penalty to positioning based on the attacking mentality.

- player world reputation. Lower reputation = the player gets more handicaps to some of his atts

- PA. yes, PA limits the bonuses of the players. Two players with same CA, the one with higher PA tends to receive more bonus in a match.

- Now this one is funny: players playing in north american clubs get a handicap to some attributes (flair, creativity and off the ball), maybe they tried to reduce ammount of goals in that league.

- Some penalty or bonus is related to player disliked club and liked club

- Players in lower divisions get more handicaps? Not sure, but looks like the code is doing this.

In some cases the player mental attributes are checked and the player receives less of those handicaps if he has good mental atts.

Also note all those handicaps and bonuses occur only during matches, so they dont reflect in the visible player attribute values in profile screen (which are mostly static intrinsically and only change from CA changes and non-general training and when player gets too old - except in the first 2 seasons of a savegame, where the intrinsic values get a 'random' visible boost)
Last edited by MadScientist on Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:30 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Handicap for young (defender) players?

Post by samsami »

Great stuff! This is what I was actually hoping for. The game engine is not nearly as simple as some (sceptical) folks seem to think it is!
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Handicap for young (defender) players?

Post by Here2Win79 »

MadScientist wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:12 pm
samsami wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:36 am I am curious about the other handicaps now :)
-

- Now this one is funny: players playing in north american clubs get a handicap to some attributes (flair, creativity and off the ball), maybe they tried to reduce ammount of goals in that league.

Is there anything similar on Japanese league goalkeepers, I have never chopped and changed my goalie so often as when I played j- league?

I'm not sure I want to know these as I like the mystery, but you know I have many pet theories that I like to explore...(!)

Do the captain's stats give any boost to other players as is implied in the game guide (maybe from earlier versions of the game but my memory was it said they would get a positioning boost, others said a workrate boost, if captain was strong in either of these)?

Does player's ability to speak the language play any part in handicaps?
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Handicap for young (defender) players?

Post by MadScientist »

Here2Win79 wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:02 am Is there anything similar on Japanese league goalkeepers, I have never chopped and changed my goalie so often as when I played j- league?
The function that apply those handicaps im aware doesnt contain any references to japan or japanese leagues, so the answer is likelly no.

Now in the rest of the match engine code, I searched for all occurrences of japan (9cf36c) or japanese leagues and it found one occurrence, but it doesnt seem to have any relation with this, its something related to international caps and goals.

I once managed Japan nation and also felt goalkeepers are poor but it was probably due to their low jumping.
Here2Win79 wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:02 am Do the captain's stats give any boost to other players as is implied in the game guide (maybe from earlier versions of the game but my memory was it said they would get a positioning boost, others said a workrate boost, if captain was strong in either of these)?
I dont know whats the check for captain in code so i dont know.

But i just made some interesting findings about the influence attribute while searching for this:

- Lots of attributes of a player get a small boost from his own influence even if he isnt captain (even positioning and workrate get a boost). And for goalkeepers this boost is even bigger, so influence is a important att for GKs

- If a player has high influence he receives less age-related handicaps even if he isnt captain. So if you want to use a young DC, the ones with high influence receive less age-related handicaps to their positioning for example.

The influence attribute itself receives a invisible boost from player international caps and player world reputation and the time the player is in the club, via function 6EBD70, so consider those factors when choosing your captain, and not just the raw influence value.

I guess that answers Tomck question:
Tomck wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:42 am So it wouldn't be very beneficial to field a starting X1 that were highly rated under 21 internationals?
As explained in paragraphs above, if he has high world rep and high international caps, his influence att gets a invisible boost, and consequently he receives less age-related handicaps.
Here2Win79 wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:02 am Does player's ability to speak the language play any part in handicaps?
I dont know whats the code offset for languages.
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Handicap for young (defender) players?

Post by Xeno »

MadScientist wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:24 pm
Boulder wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:42 pm I've read somewhere that in CM01/02, there is some kind of a handicap for players, at least defenders, under 24.
Is this true
yes, its true. It was me who said that in two different threads.

All players (not only defenders) get a penalty to their positioning attribute in the match engine when they are less than 24 years old. The younger, the bigger the penalty.

in_match_positioning = Intrinsic/5 + CA/20 + other_factors

The handicap is part of the other_factors variable.

They also get a penalty in some mental/physical atts when below 24 yo.

As positioning and mental/physical atts tend to be more important for defenders than attackers, defenders tend to be more impacted in their performances by this handicap than attackers.
Boulder wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:42 pm is there a patch to remove it? I find it a bit odd considering that a player is old enough when he is good enough :lol:
There isnt a patch for it, would be easy to make one though, just change the age values hardcodes to lower values in that function.
Boulder wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:42 pm I find it a bit odd considering that a player is old enough when he is good enough :lol:
In my opinion the handicap is fine, because positioning is very attached to player experience in real life.

The only problem is that the handicap isnt reflected in the visible player attribute value in the profile screen because that screen replaces the other_factors variable with simply another CA/20 factor, so the game isnt transparent about this handicap.

You would be surprised by the ammount of different handicaps to all attributes that currently exist in the match engine other_factors variable for several different conditions, that arent reflected in the visible player attribute value in profile screen.
Hi MadScientist ,
Very useful explanations , thanks
Now, there are many players between 21-24 age who play very well .
Could you make a patch to reduce age ranges for handicaps for all positions from 24 to 22 age if possible ? I think positional penalty calculations in code are based on age ranges such as ' below 18, between 18-21, between 21-24, between 24-30, between 30-36, over 36 , etc '.
Last edited by Xeno on Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Handicap for young (defender) players?

Post by Here2Win79 »

Xeno wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:24 am
MadScientist wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:24 pm
Boulder wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:42 pm I've read somewhere that in CM01/02, there is some kind of a handicap for players, at least defenders, under 24.
Is this true
yes, its true. It was me who said that in two different threads.

All players (not only defenders) get a penalty to their positioning attribute in the match engine when they are less than 24 years old. The younger, the bigger the penalty.

in_match_positioning = Intrinsic/5 + CA/20 + other_factors

The handicap is part of the other_factors variable.

They also get a penalty in some mental/physical atts when below 24 yo.

As positioning and mental/physical atts tend to be more important for defenders than attackers, defenders tend to be more impacted in their performances by this handicap than attackers.
Boulder wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:42 pm is there a patch to remove it? I find it a bit odd considering that a player is old enough when he is good enough :lol:
There isnt a patch for it, would be easy to make one though, just change the age values hardcodes to lower values in that function.
Boulder wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:42 pm I find it a bit odd considering that a player is old enough when he is good enough :lol:
In my opinion the handicap is fine, because positioning is very attached to player experience in real life.

The only problem is that the handicap isnt reflected in the visible player attribute value in the profile screen because that screen replaces the other_factors variable with simply another CA/20 factor, so the game isnt transparent about this handicap.

You would be surprised by the ammount of different handicaps to all attributes that currently exist in the match engine other_factors variable for several different conditions, that arent reflected in the visible player attribute value in profile screen.
Hi MadScientist ,
Very useful explanations , thanks
Could you make a patch to reduce age for handicaps for all positions from 24 to 21 age? Now, there are many players between 21-24 age who play very well .
😢 Why do you want to make me cry xeno? You could argue the opposite, that now with the preponderance of academy sides playing to u23, lots of young defenders look good in the nicely nicely, after you Clive, world of academy football and then run home crying when they have to play against their first 6ft 4 hairy semi-pro who elbows them in the ghoulies in the first minute. I was just reading an article yesterday about a 21 year old defender who is on loan to the championship just now, whose new manager said he needs to learn 'the dark arts' before he gets a start. I think it's interesting that the programmers chose to do it via the match engine rather than using an improving consistency stat or having positioning / decisions start lower and be able to improve more with gameplay, but it feels right to me that a young defender would get sucked in whereas an older head - who doesn't fancy another elbow - stands back and waits.
What is perhaps unfair is it is linked to age rather than number of first team games played, so a defender who has played since he is 18 and is now 21 is still getting the same penalty as a 21 year old making his debut. However the 18 year Old's stats should have improved with playing games so presumably he now has higher stats on which the penalty is operating and the programmers felt it would level up that way.
TLDR - I think it's fair to assume a young defender would occasionally demonstrate poorer decisions or positioning and/or lack the 'street smarts' for a contest with a wily or powerhouse striker
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Handicap for young (defender) players?

Post by Xeno »

Here2Win79 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:54 am
Xeno wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:24 am
MadScientist wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:24 pm

yes, its true. It was me who said that in two different threads.

All players (not only defenders) get a penalty to their positioning attribute in the match engine when they are less than 24 years old. The younger, the bigger the penalty.

in_match_positioning = Intrinsic/5 + CA/20 + other_factors

The handicap is part of the other_factors variable.

They also get a penalty in some mental/physical atts when below 24 yo.

As positioning and mental/physical atts tend to be more important for defenders than attackers, defenders tend to be more impacted in their performances by this handicap than attackers.



There isnt a patch for it, would be easy to make one though, just change the age values hardcodes to lower values in that function.



In my opinion the handicap is fine, because positioning is very attached to player experience in real life.

The only problem is that the handicap isnt reflected in the visible player attribute value in the profile screen because that screen replaces the other_factors variable with simply another CA/20 factor, so the game isnt transparent about this handicap.

You would be surprised by the ammount of different handicaps to all attributes that currently exist in the match engine other_factors variable for several different conditions, that arent reflected in the visible player attribute value in profile screen.
Hi MadScientist ,
Very useful explanations , thanks
Could you make a patch to reduce age for handicaps for all positions from 24 to 21 age? Now, there are many players between 21-24 age who play very well .
😢 Why do you want to make me cry xeno? You could argue the opposite, that now with the preponderance of academy sides playing to u23, lots of young defenders look good in the nicely nicely, after you Clive, world of academy football and then run home crying when they have to play against their first 6ft 4 hairy semi-pro who elbows them in the ghoulies in the first minute. I was just reading an article yesterday about a 21 year old defender who is on loan to the championship just now, whose new manager said he needs to learn 'the dark arts' before he gets a start. I think it's interesting that the programmers chose to do it via the match engine rather than using an improving consistency stat or having positioning / decisions start lower and be able to improve more with gameplay, but it feels right to me that a young defender would get sucked in whereas an older head - who doesn't fancy another elbow - stands back and waits.
What is perhaps unfair is it is linked to age rather than number of first team games played, so a defender who has played since he is 18 and is now 21 is still getting the same penalty as a 21 year old making his debut. However the 18 year Old's stats should have improved with playing games so presumably he now has higher stats on which the penalty is operating and the programmers felt it would level up that way.
TLDR - I think it's fair to assume a young defender would occasionally demonstrate poorer decisions or positioning and/or lack the 'street smarts' for a contest with a wily or powerhouse striker
MadScientist knows details more of course, but as I see basicly, handicaps are age based beside also player PA and player world reputation. So, actually , game coding is protecting good and playing players.
But , what I think is 24 age is too late :) and also I think (I may be wrong here) it effects younger transfers to good teams earlier so that most teams buy older players based on reputation as youngsters can not play because of positional penalty.
My suggestion for positional penalty calculations in code are based on age ranges such as ' below 18, between 18-20, between 20-22, between 22-30, between 30-36, over 36 , etc ' and player home reputation instead of player world reputation.
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Handicap for young (defender) players?

Post by jjklop »

MadScientist wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:24 pm

yes, its true. It was me who said that in two different threads.

All players (not only defenders) get a penalty to their positioning attribute in the match engine when they are less than 24 years old. The younger, the bigger the penalty.

in_match_positioning = Intrinsic/5 + CA/20 + other_factors

The handicap is part of the other_factors variable.


Hi all!
Have been a lurker for quite some time now and amazed with the work done by Mads in recent years.
So Kudos to you Mads!
This is my first ever post so please go easy on me.

1) For the in-match attribute calculation, can the "other factors variable" be in the negative?
I understand it is cap at 10points max.

2) Second question is related to another thread about "players that never tackles", which is a bug that happens because of the mega boost on positioning or marking when their in-match value is above 25 more or less...

So my question is, what other attributes gets the mega boost as well apart from positioning and marking ?

Thats all for now.
Cheers!
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Handicap for young (defender) players?

Post by MadScientist »

Welcome to the forums
jjklop wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:02 pm 1) For the in-match attribute calculation, can the "other factors variable" be in the negative?
I understand it is cap at 10points max.
yes, it can be very negative, sometimes it can be -20 or maybe less.

The main thing that causes it to be negative is the positional penalty (placing players in wrong positions) which sometimes can be very big.

But the resulting in_match value is never negative, its clamped to a min of 0.

So if your player has already a low CA or low intrinsic value for a attribute, and receives a very negative other_factors, it wont impact him much, because his in_match value would already be close to 0 even without the other_factors. But if he has high CA and high intrinsic, then a very negative other_factors can impact him a lot.
jjklop wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:02 pm 2) Second question is related to another thread about "players that never tackles", which is a bug that happens because of the mega boost on positioning or marking when their in-match value is above 25 more or less...

So my question is, what other attributes gets the mega boost as well apart from positioning and marking ?
The mega boost is only applied to positioning an marking, which can result in the in_match value above 127 and hence the bug.

THen there is also a boost, but not mega, applied to some other atts, but it doesnt go above 75 so no bug.

and then some atts dont get any boost so they can go up to max 45 in_match value.

I believe the developers apply those boosts to fine tune the game quickly, like if they want more goals overall they boost attacking atts and vice versa.
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Post by jjklop »

MadScientist wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:06 pm
yes, it can be very negative, sometimes it can be -20 or maybe less.

The main thing that causes it to be negative is the positional penalty (placing players in wrong positions) which sometimes can be very big.

But the resulting in_match value is never negative, its clamped to a min of 0.

So if your player has already a low CA or low intrinsic value for a attribute, and receives a very negative other_factors, it wont impact him much, because his in_match value would already be close to 0 even without the other_factors. But if he has high CA and high intrinsic, then a very negative other_factors can impact him a lot.
Hi Mads!
Thanks for the reply.

Interesting!!!
I was actually expecting you to reply, "nah, no negatives, only from 0-10" :D :D :D
Which means the biggest penalty would come in situations such as, one placing a defender as a striker vice versa without any versatility.

What is the normal/average value you would say for the variables, if someone plays sensibly.. of course.... meaning playing in right position, decent morale etc.
The mega boost is only applied to positioning an marking, which can result in the in_match value above 127 and hence the bug.

THen there is also a boost, but not mega, applied to some other atts, but it doesnt go above 75 so no bug.

and then some atts dont get any boost so they can go up to max 45 in_match value.

I believe the developers apply those boosts to fine tune the game quickly, like if they want more goals overall they boost attacking atts and vice versa.
Interesting again!
Care to tell which attribtue(s) gets the boost till 75?
As this can be really OP to have , and what kind of situation or condition that will trigger this boost?
Like age? playing in same league as nationality? etc

And which attribute(s) dont get any boost? :D

Or if you have already mentioned this somewhere in the forum, i would gladly read it if you have the link.

Lastly, for the in-match value formula : intricate value/5 + ca/20 + other variables

Is the intricate value and ca value fixed?
For example : Player A have 100 IV for passing and CA 100

Can that 100 value for IV be "more or less" depending on form, morale, fitness condition, happiness etc, or are they fixed at 100 on calculation.
Another way to put this. Since formula is Intricate value/5 = 100/5 = 20
Lets say the player is in superb morale, great form, condition (fitness) at 100%, so perhaps additional bonus may apply on the intricate value of 100, so instead of 100/5, it becomes 120/5 (after +bonus etc).
Vice versa with CA calculation.
Is that possible?

Hmmm... I guess thats all for now.
Would love to hear from you again.
Cheers!
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Post by jjklop »

Dang!
Sorry Mads, i just thought of another question.

Say there are two players with Intricate value of 255 and 210 for an attribute.
How is this calcaluted?

Suppose anything below 5 points of intricate value in calculated as 0 by the match engine, then it would kind of not make sense ya?
So in this respect, can the value for "intricate value/5" also be in the negatives?

Thanks
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Handicap for young (defender) players?

Post by madhatter_129 »

jjklop wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:22 pm
MadScientist wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:06 pm
yes, it can be very negative, sometimes it can be -20 or maybe less.

The main thing that causes it to be negative is the positional penalty (placing players in wrong positions) which sometimes can be very big.

But the resulting in_match value is never negative, its clamped to a min of 0.

So if your player has already a low CA or low intrinsic value for a attribute, and receives a very negative other_factors, it wont impact him much, because his in_match value would already be close to 0 even without the other_factors. But if he has high CA and high intrinsic, then a very negative other_factors can impact him a lot.
Hi Mads!
Thanks for the reply.

Interesting!!!
I was actually expecting you to reply, "nah, no negatives, only from 0-10" :D :D :D
Which means the biggest penalty would come in situations such as, one placing a defender as a striker vice versa without any versatility.

What is the normal/average value you would say for the variables, if someone plays sensibly.. of course.... meaning playing in right position, decent morale etc.
The mega boost is only applied to positioning an marking, which can result in the in_match value above 127 and hence the bug.

THen there is also a boost, but not mega, applied to some other atts, but it doesnt go above 75 so no bug.

and then some atts dont get any boost so they can go up to max 45 in_match value.

I believe the developers apply those boosts to fine tune the game quickly, like if they want more goals overall they boost attacking atts and vice versa.
Interesting again!
Care to tell which attribtue(s) gets the boost till 75?
As this can be really OP to have , and what kind of situation or condition that will trigger this boost?
Like age? playing in same league as nationality? etc

And which attribute(s) dont get any boost? :D

Or if you have already mentioned this somewhere in the forum, i would gladly read it if you have the link.

Lastly, for the in-match value formula : intricate value/5 + ca/20 + other variables

Is the intricate value and ca value fixed?
For example : Player A have 100 IV for passing and CA 100

Can that 100 value for IV be "more or less" depending on form, morale, fitness condition, happiness etc, or are they fixed at 100 on calculation.
Another way to put this. Since formula is Intricate value/5 = 100/5 = 20
Lets say the player is in superb morale, great form, condition (fitness) at 100%, so perhaps additional bonus may apply on the intricate value of 100, so instead of 100/5, it becomes 120/5 (after +bonus etc).
Vice versa with CA calculation.
Is that possible?

Hmmm... I guess thats all for now.
Would love to hear from you again.
Cheers!
I would have thought that the "other variables" part of the equation would include the things that you mention, such as fitness, form, etc.
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Handicap for young (defender) players?

Post by MadScientist »

jjklop wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:22 pm What is the normal/average value you would say for the variables, if someone plays sensibly.. of course.... meaning playing in right position, decent morale etc.
on average 7 for home matches and 5 for away matches, from the few data i had when i tested several players and matches.
jjklop wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:22 pm Care to tell which attribtue(s) gets the boost till 75?
And which attribute(s) dont get any boost? :D
These receive the boost up to 75: heading, finishing, marking, positioning, crossing, passing and creativity.

Note: positioning and marking receive also a megaboost which can increase then way above 75.

The other atts dont get those boosts so they can go up to 45.
jjklop wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:22 pm what kind of situation or condition that will trigger this boost?
basically, for those specific atts, if the player CA is higher than 140 and the in_match value pre-boost is higher than 16 (or 17, 18, depending on the att), then the in_match value will get the boost that can increase it up to 75.
jjklop wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:29 pm Say there are two players with Intricate value of 255 and 210 for an attribute.
How is this calcaluted?
Suppose anything below 5 points of intricate value in calculated as 0 by the match engine, then it would kind of not make sense ya?
So in this respect, can the value for "intricate value/5" also be in the negatives?
Intrinsic values range from -125 to 125. So yes, the value for intrinsic/5 can be negative.

If you see a intrinsic value of 255 or 210 it means you are using the notation from the Greamme kelly savegame editor, where 255 means -1 and 210 means -46.

Even the CA can be negative: few people know but the greyed out players have negative CA that range from -1 to -200.
jjklop wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:22 pm Lastly, for the in-match value formula : intricate value/5 + ca/20 + other variables

Is the intricate value and ca value fixed?
For example : Player A have 100 IV for passing and CA 100

Can that 100 value for IV be "more or less" depending on form, morale, fitness condition, happiness etc, or are they fixed at 100 on calculation.
Another way to put this. Since formula is Intricate value/5 = 100/5 = 20
Lets say the player is in superb morale, great form, condition (fitness) at 100%, so perhaps additional bonus may apply on the intricate value of 100, so instead of 100/5, it becomes 120/5 (after +bonus etc).
Vice versa with CA calculation.
Is that possible?
Now thats a great question. And the answer is yes thats possible, sometimes the other factors are applied directly to intrinsic or CA instead of being summed, because I lied a bit about the in_match formula, to make it easier to understand, I said the formula is:

Code: Select all

intrinsic/5 + CA/20 + other_factors
But in reality thats just a very good approximation, in fact the formula is more complex, basically like this:

Code: Select all

((((intrinsic/5) * a) + ((CA/20) * b) + c) ^ d) ^ e
where a, b, c, d and e are combinations of several different factors.

So some factors are applied (multiplied) to the intrinsic (a), some factors are applied (multiplied) to the CA (b), and some are summed there alone (c).

d is the boost some atts receive up to 75 (in the form of a 'power of': ^ symbol)

e is the mega boost positioning and marking receive.

And still thats just a approximation, there are some more logic bits here and there that change it a little bit per attribute.
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Handicap for young (defender) players?

Post by MadScientist »

One detail, though, is that the 'a' and 'b' variables above are usually lower than 1, this means they are usually a penalty and not a boost, only in some specific cases they are a small boost (for example, when the DC is between 30 and 32 years old the 'a' variable there is slightly above 1 in the positioning formula so this means the boost is like a increase directly in the intrinsic value of positioning).

Thats why I ommited the a and b from the simplified formula.

The 'c' value is usually maxed at 8, but when I say the other_factors can be up to 10 I mean the effect of this max 8 value combined with the effect of the possible boosts given by the 'a' and 'b' variable would be approximatelly equivalent to ommiting 'a' and 'b' and maxing the 'c' at 10.
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Handicap for young (defender) players?

Post by Xeno »

Xeno wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:24 am Hi MadScientist ,
Very useful explanations , thanks
Now, there are many players between 21-24 age who play very well .
Could you make a patch to reduce age ranges for handicaps for all positions from 24 to 22 age if possible ? I think positional penalty calculations in code are based on age ranges such as ' below 18, between 18-21, between 21-24, between 24-30, between 30-36, over 36 , etc '.

My suggestion for positional penalty calculations in code are based on age ranges such as ' below 18, between 18-20, between 20-22, between 22-30, between 30-36, over 36 , etc ' and player home reputation instead of player world reputation.
Will you ? @MadScientist
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