Handicap for young (defender) players?

[MadScientist]

Could you make a patch to reduce age ranges for handicaps for all positions from 24 to 22 age if possible ? I think positional penalty calculations in code are based on age ranges such as ' below 18, between 18-21, between 21-24, between 24-30, between 30-36, over 36 , etc '.

My suggestion for positional penalty calculations in code are based on age ranges such as ' below 18, between 18-20, between 20-22, between 22-30, between 30-36, over 36 , etc ' and player home reputation instead of player world reputation.

Will you ? @MadScientist

To change to the interval you proposed, simply change 15 to 14 and 18 to 16 in these lines:

Code: Select all

006EC277 CMP AL,15
006EC2A7 CMP AL,18
006ED679 CMP BL,15
006EC914 CMP CL,18
006EC944 CMP CL,15  
006EDEB7 CMP DL,18

As you know 15 hex is 21 and 18 hex is 24.

To use home rep instead of world rep, change +D to +9 in these lines:

Code: Select all

006EC96C MOVSX EAX,WORD PTR DS:[EDI+D] 
006ED681 CMP WORD PTR DS:[EDX+D],0EA6
006EE52E CMP WORD PTR DS:[EAX+D],DI
006EE63F CMP WORD PTR DS:[EAX+D],DI

[Xeno]

Could you make a patch to reduce age ranges for handicaps for all positions from 24 to 22 age if possible ? I think positional penalty calculations in code are based on age ranges such as ' below 18, between 18-21, between 21-24, between 24-30, between 30-36, over 36 , etc '.

My suggestion for positional penalty calculations in code are based on age ranges such as ' below 18, between 18-20, between 20-22, between 22-30, between 30-36, over 36 , etc ' and player home reputation instead of player world reputation.

Will you ? @MadScientist

To change to the interval you proposed, simply change 15 to 14 and 18 to 16 in these lines:

Code: Select all

006EC277 CMP AL,15
006EC2A7 CMP AL,18
006ED679 CMP BL,15
006EC914 CMP CL,18
006EC944 CMP CL,15  
006EDEB7 CMP DL,18

As you know 15 hex is 21 and 18 hex is 24.

To use home rep instead of world rep, change +D to +9 in these lines:

Code: Select all

006EC96C MOVSX EAX,WORD PTR DS:[EDI+D] 
006ED681 CMP WORD PTR DS:[EDX+D],0EA6
006EE52E CMP WORD PTR DS:[EAX+D],DI
006EE63F CMP WORD PTR DS:[EAX+D],DI

You are perfect, will try it
One question, is this just for defenders?

[MadScientist]

One question, is this just for defenders?

No, this is for all players and positions

[Xeno]

What is your thinking ? Is it ok about new age intervals?
I think currently , too many young players

[MadScientist]

What is your thinking ? Is it ok about new age intervals?

honestly i prefer the original intervals but as it was a simple change i posted the offsets

[Xeno]

I think 24 years old is too late nowadays to be good.
It shall be earlier as 22 although Here2Win79 does not agree

[jjklop]

Hey Mads!
Thanks for all the feedback.
Very much appreciated.
I ll take some time to digest all the infos...

Also, if you are making a patch, is it possible to make it that all regens with a min of certain PA be automatically given very high Ambition attributes + high reps? For example, the maldinis, the nestas, walter samuels of the game, with high PA of 180 and above, should always have high ambitions and high reps even when they are reborn as regens. That way, the game will have some 'continuity' and even realistic, like if they are good, then it doesnt matter if they are 18yo or 19yo... Top clubs will come after them, instead of letting these players rot at some unheard of teams playing in non-league football for the rest of their life as a regen.

In my current save game playing only scandinavion leagues on (sweden/finland/norway etc), after 20 season in, most top european clubs are left with only 2-3 players in their team, and I have to basically improves the stats of regens via GK editor to make them desirable to the top clubs. It seems that low reps are one of the reasons, along with poor mental attributes. Usually a rep (home/current/world) of 8000 is enough to attract the big clubs to come in for these players again.

Thanks again!
Cheers

[jjklop]

These receive the boost up to 75: heading, finishing, marking, positioning, crossing, passing and creativity.

Note: positioning and marking receive also a megaboost which can increase then way above 75.

The other atts dont get those boosts so they can go up to 45.


basically, for those specific atts, if the player CA is higher than 140 and the in_match value pre-boost is higher than 16 (or 17, 18, depending on the att), then the in_match value will get the boost that can increase it up to 75.

Awesome!!! Now I'm gonna experiment with the GKeditor based on these infos.
Thanks.

Intrinsic values range from -125 to 125. So yes, the value for intrinsic/5 can be negative.

If you see a intrinsic value of 255 or 210 it means you are using the notation from the Greamme kelly savegame editor, where 255 means -1 and 210 means -46.

Even the CA can be negative: few people know but the greyed out players have negative CA that range from -1 to -200.

Got it too!!!

Interesting!
But for the IV formula and Ca, even if they are negative values, the in-match value pre-boost at worst will be clamped at 0 right?
So, a player with 210 IV and 160 CA, could actually be on par with a player with 210 IV and 60 CA for a particular attribute, since IV of 210 is -46, that will wipe out the surplus from the CA value (in this case, 160/20 = 8pts thereabouts), and both ended up with 0 in match value ?
Of course this is an extreme example, but would you say this is true?
Which will then make other attributes such as physical and mental attributes much more important in these cases.

Thats all.
Cheers again.

[MadScientist]

But for the IV formula and Ca, even if they are negative values, the in-match value pre-boost at worst will be clamped at 0 right?

Right.

First it does approximatelly: Intrinsic/5 + CA/20 + other_factors

Then it clamps to 0.

Then it applies the boost and the mega boost (when relevant).

Then it applies the positional penalty and clamps to 0 again.

So, a player with 210 IV and 160 CA, could actually be on par with a player with 210 IV and 60 CA for a particular attribute, since IV of 210 is -46, that will wipe out the surplus from the CA value (in this case, 160/20 = 8pts thereabouts), and both ended up with 0 in match value ?
Of course this is an extreme example, but would you say this is true?

Not true. Lets do the math, supposing a 10 for other_factors:

Player 1: -46/5 + 160/20 + 10 = 8.8
Player 2: -46/5 + 60/20 + 10 = 3.8

[samsami]

what kind of situation or condition that will trigger this boost?

basically, for those specific atts, if the player CA is higher than 140 and the in_match value pre-boost is higher than 16 (or 17, 18, depending on the att), then the in_match value will get the boost that can increase it up to 75.

Now this is interesting. So when you manage a team which only has players with a CA of <140 (in my case even their PA is <140) you will have a really hard time trying to be successful at the top flight level where many teams have players with a PA >140 who will all benefit from this boost to their heading, finishing, marking, positioning, crossing, passing and creativity.

[Gooda]

- The circle the player is placed in the tactical map. Even if he is in his prefered position, some circles get a penalty to some attributes, like crossing for example seem to be penalized if the player is in a center circle.

I read in the Manual that a good corner taker requires good Set Pieces and Crossing.

Does that mean that a MC shouldn't take corners?

If a MC and a MR have the same Corners attribute, is MR a better choice for a corner taker?

[MadScientist]

- The circle the player is placed in the tactical map. Even if he is in his prefered position, some circles get a penalty to some attributes, like crossing for example seem to be penalized if the player is in a center circle.

I read in the Manual that a good corner taker requires good Set Pieces and Crossing.

Does that mean that a MC shouldn't take corners?

If a MC and a MR have the same Corners attribute, is MR a better choice for a corner taker?

If crossing att is used for corners (I dont know) and the player gets a crossing penalty for being in a center circle, then a wide circle player with the same attributes would be a better choice for corner taking

[samsami]

If crossing att is used for corners (I don't know) and the player gets a crossing penalty for being in a center circle, then a wide circle player with the same attributes would be a better choice for corner taking

The Manual indeed says about corners that "a player will require good Set Pieces and Crossing attribute values"

It also says: Ideally the player who takes your corners will"be able to kick with the most favourable foot.

[MadScientist]

If crossing att is used for corners (I don't know) and the player gets a crossing penalty for being in a center circle, then a wide circle player with the same attributes would be a better choice for corner taking

The Manual indeed says about corners that "a player will require good Set Pieces and Crossing attribute values"

It also says: Ideally the player who takes your corners will"be able to kick with the most favourable foot.

Ok. I re-checked the code because I wasn't sure if a player would really get a penalty for crossing attribute in non-wide circle, and what I really found is:

If a player is in AML/R circle OR in FL/FR circle OR is in any wide circle with arrow pointing to AML/R or to FL/R, and doesn't have an arrow pointing to center, then he receives a 1.025 boost to crossing.

Code below with comments for reference:

Code: Select all

v100 = v99 ? sub_6C38C0(v99, v1) : 0;
if ( v100 & 0x880 )
{
	  // Player is in a wide circle (6C38C0 & 0x880)
	  v101 = *(void **)(v1 + 414);
	  v102 = v101 ? sub_6C38F0(v101, v1) : 0;
	  if ( v102 & 0x880 )
	  {
			// Player doesn't have any arrows pointing to center (6C38F0 & 0x880)
			v103 = *(void **)(v1 + 414);
			v104 = v103 ? (unsigned __int8)sub_6C38C0(v103, v1) : 0;
			if ( v104 & 0x60
			  || ((v105 = *(void **)(v1 + 414)) == 0 ? (v106 = 0) : (v106 = sub_6C38F0(v105, v1)), v106 & 0x60) )
			{	
				// Player is in AM or F circle (6C38C0 & 0x60) or player has arrow to AM or F circle (6C38F0 & 0x60)
				// Receives 1.025 boost to in match value of crossing.
				*(float *)(v1 + 141) = *(float *)(v1 + 141) * 1.025;
			}
	  }
}

[Gooda]

Ok. I re-checked the code because I wasn't sure if a player would really get a penalty for crossing attribute in non-wide circle, and what I really found is:

If a player is in AML/R circle OR in FL/FR circle OR is in any wide circle with arrow pointing to AML/R or to FL/R, and doesn't have an arrow pointing to center, then he receives a 1.025 boost to crossing.

Another great find, MadScientist! Great work!

That would explain this line from Marc Vaughan's Guide:
"The match engine has been tuned for CM01/02 to accentuate the usefulness of wingers in the game as these were under-effective in prior versions."

[Gooda]

It also says: Ideally the player who takes your corners will"be able to kick with the most favourable foot.

Yeah, this caught my attention, too. It also says that corners on the left should be taken by players who are left footed.
I always thought that corners on the left meant 'on the left FACING the goal', so they should be taken by a right footed player.
Live and learn.

I suppose the same applies for free kicks.

[Gooda]

I am curious about the other handicaps now

The other_factors is a combination of handicaps and bonuses that comes from lots of different variables and lots of diferent conditions. Each attribute has a different logic for this. Its hard to understand each one (and I also dont want to spoil it too much for myself ), but here is a example of some handicaps and bonuses im aware:

- player morale.

- poor mental attributes impact some attributes

In some cases the player mental attributes are checked and the player receives less of those handicaps if he has good mental atts.

I'm really curious about the effect of mental attributes when a player has low morale. Is there a relationship similar to Versatility and positional penalty? Something like - high Professionalism reduces the negative impact of low morale?

- tactical instructions? Now im not sure about this one, but it looks like its giving a penalty to positioning based on the attacking mentality.

From my experience I can say this really is the case and it makes a huge difference. Defensive solidity of my teams is dramatically improved if I play with Normal mentality when the opponent is Attacking.

It doesn't seem (to me) that, conversely, Defensive mentality gives a positioning boost, though.

[Here2Win79]

As far as I can tell defensive mentality really improves ball retention - maybe it gives a boost to decisions or maybe it’s just something to do with players coming short for the ball rather than running in behind - I’ve never looked at the movement screen to see if anything changes with mentality. It’s basically reducing the risk of every action a player takes so the only attribute I can see that drives that is decisions (and its attacking equivalent, anticipation).
Id guess that similarly men behind ball is boosting workrate but whether either of these options comes at the expense of something, ie negative multipliers on certain atts, I have no idea.

[MadScientist]

I'm really curious about the effect of mental attributes when a player has low morale. Is there a relationship similar to Versatility and positional penalty? Something like - high Professionalism reduces the negative impact of low morale?

Actually im not sure if the variable I was looking at was really morale. I see the offset is 0x45 which is the offset of morale but that doesn't seem to be the player structure so may be some other variable. That variable (morale???) is used to apply a penalty to some attributes like flair, creativity, dribbling, workrate and decisions, and that penalty is reduced when the player has high pressure, professionalism, ambition and temperament.

[MadScientist]

It also says: Ideally the player who takes your corners will"be able to kick with the most favourable foot.

Yeah, this caught my attention, too. It also says that corners on the left should be taken by players who are left footed.
I always thought that corners on the left meant 'on the left FACING the goal', so they should be taken by a right footed player.
Live and learn.

I would suppose he meant on the left facing the goal so should be taken by left footed, what do you think?

[Gooda]

I'm really curious about the effect of mental attributes when a player has low morale. Is there a relationship similar to Versatility and positional penalty? Something like - high Professionalism reduces the negative impact of low morale?

Actually im not sure if the variable I was looking at was really morale. I see the offset is 0x45 which is the offset of morale but that doesn't seem to be the player structure so may be some other variable. That variable (morale???) is used to apply a penalty to some attributes like flair, creativity, dribbling, workrate and decisions, and that penalty is reduced when the player has high pressure, professionalism, ambition and temperament.

This variable has to be morale. When my morale is low, my work rate and decisions are terrible. My low professionalism doesn't help either.

If it is morale, I suppose it would give a boost to attributes if it has a high value. Right?

Would it spoil too much to know exactly how much of a boost/penalty players get from morale?

[MadScientist]

I'm really curious about the effect of mental attributes when a player has low morale. Is there a relationship similar to Versatility and positional penalty? Something like - high Professionalism reduces the negative impact of low morale?

Actually im not sure if the variable I was looking at was really morale. I see the offset is 0x45 which is the offset of morale but that doesn't seem to be the player structure so may be some other variable. That variable (morale???) is used to apply a penalty to some attributes like flair, creativity, dribbling, workrate and decisions, and that penalty is reduced when the player has high pressure, professionalism, ambition and temperament.

This variable has to be morale. When my morale is low, my work rate and decisions are terrible. My low professionalism doesn't help either.

If it is morale, I suppose it would give a boost to attributes if it has a high value. Right?

Would it spoil too much to know exactly how much of a boost/penalty players get from morale?

It isnt morale, I checked again. I found out that structure is the player contract structure. No one ever found out what the offset 0x45 in the player contract is, it isnt morale but I see it can affect the player morale, as sometimes it uses this variable to update the morale value. I suspect it may be the player happyness or player future.

But i found where morale is being used in the match engine. Its disguised as offset 0x17 in a match engine data structure. Morale is a value between 1 and 20. A morale of 10 looks neutral. A morale above 10 gives a small proportional boost to nearly all attributes. A morale below 10 gives a small proportional penalty to nearly all atts.

How much is this penalty and boost? Hard to say, its complex math and logic and a bit different for each att and has randomness, and sometimes when the penalty or bonus is above some dynamic threshold its clamped. But on a quick look I think the bonus and penalty from morale wont be higher than 1, maybe max 0.6.

Found something interesting while checking this: player Teamwork gets a penalty if you give a goal bonus in the contract. It compares the goal bonus value with the wage value and if its above a threshold it gives penalty to teamwork. If professionalism is higher, the teamwork penalty is lower. The higher the goal bonus rate versus the wage, the higher the penalty to teamwork.

[Here2Win79]

A penalty to teamwork is beneficial to an attacking player I believe. I give my forwards and high dribbling AMs disproportionate goal bonuses to encourage exactly this behaviour - run with ball and score a goal, don’t waste time worrying about what your team mates are up to. Likewise I pay massive clean sheet bonuses.

[Gooda]

MadScientist, you're performances have been of the highest standard recently. Great work! So many interesting finds!

But on a quick look I think the bonus and penalty from morale wont be higher than 1, maybe max 0.6.

So, if a player has Superb morale and, say, Positioning = 15, Tackling = 14, after applying the boost he'd have Positioning = 16, Tackling = 15? Is that how it works?

[MadScientist]

But on a quick look I think the bonus and penalty from morale wont be higher than 1, maybe max 0.6.

So, if a player has Superb morale and, say, Positioning = 15, Tackling = 14, after applying the boost he'd have Positioning = 16, Tackling = 15? Is that how it works?

Yes, approximatelly. 15.6 and 14.6 would be a better guess, as for the match engine those values are floating point