1888/1989 Database (ideas for development)

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1888/1989 Database (ideas for development)

Post by Mark »

Morning guys. I'm looking to start a side project where we can make a database based on the origins of professional football which (as far as I can see!) began in 1888 with a 12 team division in England.

I started working on putting the squads together in the ODB, overwriting existing players as you can see in the spoiler below but I've now decided that I should start afresh with the empty database and fill it up as we progress through the various years, adding in new players and teams (across the globe) as they formed. The good thing about working on a historical database is that we know how players performed so it'll be easy to set the relevant players up as the better ones in each squad, who progresses in their career, and to be selected internationally too.

Having started working on this initially, I started to realise that there's a lot more work to be done in terms of developing an executable or patch that will match how professional football began. I'll be the first to admit that I have never delved into patching, or whether there are offsets to configure certain aspects of the game that would be good for these type of databases. It's also been a long time since I can recall exactly what can cause database errors via the editor.

So I have some questions, as to whether we can make a realistic version of the 1888 professional league? Please contribute if you can, if there are other potential hurdles I've not thought about.

- Can we use a patcher to set the start year to 1888?
- If the above is successful, will the patcher then display date of births and player histories correctly?
- Will there be any errors if competition histories are erased in the editor?
- The first professional league had 12 teams with no promotion/relegation. How best do we go about setting this up (league swap?, ensuring that it is still the English league.
- Can other leagues and competitions be disabled, with a view to re-enabling them as we move on to the next database releases? I'm thinking of the start new game options too, where can hopefully only allow the English league to be selected until the point in history where other professional leagues are formed.
- On a similar note, can competitions be renamed if needed?
- Can we disable loans until they are introduced?
- I believe at the time, countries could only select players who played in their professional league (e.g. Scottish players playing in England are not eligible for selection internationally). Is this something we can configure?
- Can we disable substitutes, and later edit the number of substitutes allowed in the leagues/competition?
- Will there be any issue if team names are edited to their original names? And for any team names greyed out in the database, is it possible to edit them? Just thinking of say Man Utd, who joined the Football League in 1892 as Newton Heath, and Sheff Wed who started out as The Wednesday.
- Is it possible to amend the amount of points earned for a win and a draw? It was 2 points and 1 point originally.
- Can nations be renamed without issues? I'm thinking back of the likes of West Germany and Soviet Union, etc.

I'm sure there's a lot more that I haven't thought about!

Here's some snippets of the work that I had originally done, just overwriting appropriate players in the ODB, changing all the details except the attributes.
► Show Spoiler
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1888/1989 Database (ideas for development)

Post by Cam F »

Not often I am speechless but i am speechless.

You watching Young Guns 2 last night ?

Now a 60s or 70s db would be cool.

Not sure how viable a 1888 exe would be tbh, perfectly fine with year set to 2001 though
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Post by Kingsley »

I was wondering what the motivation for this was, but some quick research found me the answer
► Show Spoiler
I can answer some of the questions (even if I don't know how to do it myself)

- Will there be any errors if competition histories are erased in the editor? - Almost certainly. The likes of world cup qualifiers and who is in some cups is dependent on the histories
- The first professional league had 12 teams with no promotion/relegation. How best do we go about setting this up (league swap?, ensuring that it is still the English league. - That should not be too hard to do
- Can other leagues and competitions be disabled, with a view to re-enabling them as we move on to the next database releases? I'm thinking of the start new game options too, where can hopefully only allow the English league to be selected until the point in history where other professional leagues are formed. - Disabling league completely will not work. Not sure about the start up page, that might be possible with some patching, but not 100% sure
- On a similar note, can competitions be renamed if needed? - Yes
- Can we disable loans until they are introduced? - We can't disable loans, but we can set a limit of how many loans are allowed, and that could be 0 (ie clubs can make players available for loan, but noone can take them up)
- I believe at the time, countries could only select players who played in their professional league (e.g. Scottish players playing in England are not eligible for selection internationally). Is this something we can configure? - Highly unlikely
- Can we disable substitutes, and later edit the number of substitutes allowed in the leagues/competition? - See loans.
- Will there be any issue if team names are edited to their original names? And for any team names greyed out in the database, is it possible to edit them? Just thinking of say Man Utd, who joined the Football League in 1892 as Newton Heath, and Sheff Wed who started out as The Wednesday. - That will be a problem. There are a large number of clubs that are hardcoded into the game. see here https://www.champman0102.net/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=2801
- Is it possible to amend the amount of points earned for a win and a draw? It was 2 points and 1 point originally. - Yes. that is a fairly simple patch.
- Can nations be renamed without issues? I'm thinking back of the likes of West Germany and Soviet Union, etc.- No. See answer for clubs.

Over all, I think that this would be a huge amount of work and probably not fully implementable. I'm not sure how many would actually be interested in using it, so I would question if it is worth the investment.
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Post by Mark »

Cam F wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 1:23 pm Not often I am speechless but i am speechless.

You watching Young Guns 2 last night ?

Now a 60s or 70s db would be cool.

Not sure how viable a 1888 exe would be tbh, perfectly fine with year set to 2001 though
Why speechless? No idea what Young Guns has to do with it.

Well, that's pretty much a given, isn't it? The 01/02 game would work with a start year set to 2001? :lol:
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Post by Mark »

Kingsley wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 6:36 pm I was wondering what the motivation for this was, but some quick research found me the answer
► Show Spoiler
I can answer some of the questions (even if I don't know how to do it myself)

- Will there be any errors if competition histories are erased in the editor? - Almost certainly. The likes of world cup qualifiers and who is in some cups is dependent on the histories
- The first professional league had 12 teams with no promotion/relegation. How best do we go about setting this up (league swap?, ensuring that it is still the English league. - That should not be too hard to do
- Can other leagues and competitions be disabled, with a view to re-enabling them as we move on to the next database releases? I'm thinking of the start new game options too, where can hopefully only allow the English league to be selected until the point in history where other professional leagues are formed. - Disabling league completely will not work. Not sure about the start up page, that might be possible with some patching, but not 100% sure
- On a similar note, can competitions be renamed if needed? - Yes
- Can we disable loans until they are introduced? - We can't disable loans, but we can set a limit of how many loans are allowed, and that could be 0 (ie clubs can make players available for loan, but noone can take them up)
- I believe at the time, countries could only select players who played in their professional league (e.g. Scottish players playing in England are not eligible for selection internationally). Is this something we can configure? - Highly unlikely
- Can we disable substitutes, and later edit the number of substitutes allowed in the leagues/competition? - See loans.
- Will there be any issue if team names are edited to their original names? And for any team names greyed out in the database, is it possible to edit them? Just thinking of say Man Utd, who joined the Football League in 1892 as Newton Heath, and Sheff Wed who started out as The Wednesday. - That will be a problem. There are a large number of clubs that are hardcoded into the game. see here https://www.champman0102.net/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=2801
- Is it possible to amend the amount of points earned for a win and a draw? It was 2 points and 1 point originally. - Yes. that is a fairly simple patch.
- Can nations be renamed without issues? I'm thinking back of the likes of West Germany and Soviet Union, etc.- No. See answer for clubs.

Over all, I think that this would be a huge amount of work and probably not fully implementable. I'm not sure how many would actually be interested in using it, so I would question if it is worth the investment.
Haha, nothing to do with Stoke! Thanks for the reply.

It's for my own enjoyment really. I've always enjoyed doing the legends databases, and liked the idea of starting from scratch and seeing a database grow for each year from 1888.

I just thought I'd put it out there what I had in mind and to see what can actually be done with the various tools that have been released over the years, and what could be done via the offsets. If others wanted to give it a whirl, then it's there for them to have a go.
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Post by Cam F »

Don't get me wrong captain, I love your idea, I just was wondering where the idea came from :)
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Post by Mark »

:lol: The Young Guns comment threw me :D

I might just do what I can from an empty database, and doing some trial and error as to what can/can't be done in the editor.

Will have to do some searching through the patch forum to see what I can modify within the executable... Was hoping some of the more experienced folks would have some suggestions to put me on the right path.
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Post by SteveHarle »

Mark - not sure if it's just me but I had issues with the Empty DB running the English League on Max. Tried everything to fix it but it constantly errored. Had more than enough staff and players in it - I think about 2500. Once you have enough players in it, maybe test running it before you go further.
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Post by leovii »

The tactics back then would of been really strange like 2-3-5 long ball lol be pretty cool if there a tactic pack for this also which was similar to what teams used back then

''In the late 1800’s attack was the order of the day, it wouldn’t be surprising to see teams set up with a 2-2-6 or even a 1-2-7.

Preston North End FC were the first team to win the English league title setting up with a very similar formation to the vanguard; the 2-3-5 pyramid.

This allowed them to have support high and wide up the pitch but also using a centre half in the 3 to act as a pivot between attack and defence. This strategy allowed them to stay unbeaten and win the first double in English football.''
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Post by Here2Win79 »

Leovii you should check out the Preston invincibles story by luke21, he tried that formation out a few times in his first season, with the story being inspired by that Preston team.
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Post by Nick+Co »

Can we use a patcher to set the start year to 1888?
Most likely not the normal way, but I could probably patch it so it displays the date as 1888 even if internally it thinks its 2001. That's what I'm doing with CM9798 (my 2021 update internally is running as 1997, it's just all the functions that write the date to the screen have been changed to make it show the data from 2021 onwards)

Will there be any errors if competition histories are erased in the editor?
Depends if you turn those competitions off or not - which I guess you would be doing ?

On a similar note, can competitions be renamed if needed?
Nations, Clubs and competitions can be renamed relatively easily - my patcher changes it in everywhere in the code and all the data files - so it can change any name without issue (those hardcoded names/parts can be NOP'd out if need be).

Everything is possible - it's all just work - but the weird bit is will this really fit with the CM0102 aesthetic? Maybe we should change all the colours to be black & white (well grey) ;)
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Post by Mark »

Thanks Nick, knew you'd have an answer to some of those queries! Hadn't thought of the colour scheme, changing that to an old fashioned look might be pretty cool. And possibly changing the font too! Will have to have a think/play around.

I was thinking that disabling competitions might be a good idea so that there is only the First Division (of the 12 teams) and the FA Cup available to play. I have this idea in my head that as the other football leagues formed in other nations, I'd re-enable those competitions.

Displaying the date as 1888 would be awesome, sounds like an easier way than using the patcher with potential errors.

Would this be something I can figure out myself? Happy to learn on the go!

@SteveHarle - Thanks for the heads up. I was hoping that once I did have 200+ players, the error would go away as Derm stated in the download thread... Guess there's only one way to find out!
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Post by nowhereman »

Where would you get player data for 1889 from?
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Post by Cam F »

nowhereman wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 6:41 pm Where would you get player data for 1889 from?
Rothman football yearbook 1888/89 obviously 😎
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Post by Mark »

There's full squad lists on Wikipedia which should be a good start. Some apps/goal stats too, which should help to work out who the regulars are.
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Post by Mark »

SteveHarle wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 8:53 am Mark - not sure if it's just me but I had issues with the Empty DB running the English League on Max. Tried everything to fix it but it constantly errored. Had more than enough staff and players in it - I think about 2500. Once you have enough players in it, maybe test running it before you go further.
You're right mate, I'm having the same issue now despite there being over 200 players. I didn't do a lot, just created names/nationality and assigned them to a club.

It's extremely odd, did you ever speak to Derm about the error? It's the exact same one everytime.
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Post by nowhereman »

Cam F wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:53 pm
nowhereman wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 6:41 pm Where would you get player data for 1889 from?
Rothman football yearbook 1888/89 obviously 😎
:lol:
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Post by SteveHarle »

Mark wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:58 pm
SteveHarle wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 8:53 am Mark - not sure if it's just me but I had issues with the Empty DB running the English League on Max. Tried everything to fix it but it constantly errored. Had more than enough staff and players in it - I think about 2500. Once you have enough players in it, maybe test running it before you go further.
You're right mate, I'm having the same issue now despite there being over 200 players. I didn't do a lot, just created names/nationality and assigned them to a club.

It's extremely odd, did you ever speak to Derm about the error? It's the exact same one everytime.
Yeah, I think I shared the DB with Derm and Andrea, maybe some others too. I have thousands of players and I also created staff too. It was only the English league that was causing a problem on max DB. If you run it on med/min it's fine but obviously you don't get all players. I guess if you force load all players that might fix it but that means you wouldn't be able to play it without a patch.

I tried so many things to try and fix it, that's why I ended up canning the legends DB as I got so frustrated with it! i'd just started working on Real Madrid too... this is half of the squad...

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Post by HaroldFinch »

What was the error again?
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Post by SteveHarle »

HaroldFinch wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:15 am What was the error again?
It was the not enough players error, can't remember what it is off the top of my head but it errors then crashes at start.
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Post by HaroldFinch »

SteveHarle wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 11:14 am
HaroldFinch wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:15 am What was the error again?
It was the not enough players error, can't remember what it is off the top of my head but it errors then crashes at start.
Not shit Sherlock :lol: I was just thinking if I knew the error code I could attempt to look into it, or someone more intelligent than me could.
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Post by Mark »

This is it mate:

Image

I hadn't realised that it only appears for the English league which is odd. Perhaps there's something unusual about the English leagues in this version of the data update that Derm had cleared out? It must be an old one: viewtopic.php?f=73&t=275
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Post by Xeno »

Please use search bar for problems :) @Mark

These below issues can be vice versa>>>

v3.9.68 Database..cpp 399: There are more players and more clubs in database than game can support.
Solution: Just apply APPLYMISCPATCH: "2021 Patches/DoubleHeapMemory.patch" from [PATCH] Nick's CM0102Patcher under Tools>Apply a Misc Patch section.

v3.9.68 Database..cpp 398: There are more (free?) players and less clubs in database than game can support.
Solution: Just apply APPLYMISCPATCH: "2021 Patches/DoubleHeapMemory.patch" from [PATCH] Nick's CM0102Patcher under Tools>Apply a Misc Patch section.

viewtopic.php?f=85&t=3573
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Post by Mark »

Strange... That surely doesn't make sense? I can't imagine that Derm deleted any teams from the database that he used to clear out the players?
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Post by Dermotron »

All I deleted were players, staff and refs. Maybe there's a shortage of refs?
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